Bob 0:00 Our pleasure to talk with Kimm Burger today on Conversations With Kimm here on CSR, and Dostoevsky wrote the book Crime and Punishment, and we've talked about crime, and we've talked about punishment several times with Kimm. But Kimm, what about the defense side? You know, because you're a defense lawyer, so I'm assuming that when somebody gets arrested and they they hire Kimm Burger to be their attorney, the first thing they're gonna say is, "I didn't do it." So take me a little bit through the defense side of things and how that works. Kimm 0:27 Well, when somebody comes in, they give us their side of the story. Obviously, we have the police side of the story. And of course, usually they don't match up. So we start talking, trying to flush out these different facts of the cases and then trying to figure out, "Is there a defense for you?" Sometimes they think there's a defense, but it's not reasonable or logical or even one that's legal, you know, to do. But you know, you have your, "I didn't intend to do it." You have an alibi, you have self-defense. You know, I wasn't in possession of this thing, or I didn't know, are some of the, you know, typical defenses that we hear. Bob 1:06 So let's talk about some of those typical defenses. Say, I'm riding in a car with somebody. Obviously, I have no idea what's under the seat, I have no idea what's in the glove box, I have no idea if there's a body in the trunk. I just get in the car and say, "Hey, we're going out to dinner," and then they get pulled over for speeding or running a stop sign or something like that. And then they find the body in the trunk. Am I liable for that? Kimm 1:30 I'm gonna say you're going to be hooked for it. But whether it's legal or not, is something different. Because you have this, you know, defense. I had no idea this was in there. I just was asked to come to dinner. That person was driving the vehicle. They're the ones picking me up, and I got in. So if you had absolutely no knowledge of this going on, then technically you can't be found guilty of it. Bob 1:54 Now, what about the other side of things? Because we've heard a lot where somebody will need to borrow a car, you know, like, their car's broken, and they go to a friend and say, "Hey, can I borrow your car?" And then, for whatever reason, they get pulled over, and then something is found in their vehicle. In that vehicle? It's not their vehicle, but it's in that vehicle. Are they susceptible to being arrested if a gun is found, or drugs, or found something like that, even though they might not have any idea it's there? Kimm 2:19 The answer is yes. Because the rationale is you should know what's in the vehicle that you're driving. And a lot of times, it's stupid. But you know, that's kind of the, you know, prosecutors, that's law enforcement version of it, because you should know. But a lot of times you don't know, I may get in my son's vehicle. And I have no idea what's going on in his car, though. You know, I'm driving it. I had an incident once where the father was driving and the son was moving. So the father was just putting stuff in his own car. The son had packed everything and put the totes in dad's car. Well, dad didn't realize that son put a gun in the tote, which is now concealed, because nobody can see it. And then dad gets stopped on the search, they find this gun, and now he's been arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. Now, does the charge go through? Or how is that handled is something different, but technically you're violating the law. Bob 3:14 So ignorance isn't a good defense, or it is a good defense. Kimm 3:21 They try that one, but no ignorance of the law is not a defense, such as like brass knuckles. You can not possess those. Those are illegal in Michigan, and people were like, "Why didn't I know that?" And most people don't. But still, the ignorance of the law, usually, you know, because that's a felony. Usually, it's not capped at the felony, as long as you're not trying, your purpose isn't like, I'm carrying brass knuckles, and I'm gonna go beat Bob up. You know, my intent was it was just in my car, or I just had it. I wasn't going to do something mean or illegal with it. Bob 3:53 So then what kind of recourse would I have then if I truly am innocent, but yet get charged to the crime?  Because I just happened to be there. Or I'm in the general proximity there of, should I obviously hire you? But then should I just say, I'm adamant I had nothing to do with this? I mean, is being forceful, like that, a good defense? Kimm 4:15 It can and it kind of sways different ways. Because some people, as an example, with the father with a gun in the car, he was pled to something like a disorderly and just saying, you know, you should know what's in your car and disorderly is like the lowest, you know, crime that you have. And it's usually just fines and costs; there is no jail time normally associated with that, you know, and it's just to get it done with; it's like, I just don't want to keep going, or I don't want to take my chances. But if you are like, "No, I didn't know this was in here," and then you go to trial, and then that's up to the jury to decide. If you didn't know, if you didn't know, or if the defense works. Bob 4:54 It's still, I don't want to use the word, confuses me. But I guess, surprises me that I could be an innocent bystander and still be charged with a crime. Kimm 5:04 Yes, because how it normally works is the police stop you and they find something. They don't care whose it is at that point. Everybody's gonna get charged, and then it's kind of flushed out in the end. Bob 5:16 Now, So then when I contact Kimm Burger, and you represent me, and we all find out that yes, Bob was an innocent bystander, he had nothing to do with his, he had no idea. Does that then clear my record, and I have no record so that if I were to apply for a job or a loan or a credit card, they're not going to come back to me and say, hey, you know, you're in, you know, you've gone through the court system. Kimm 5:38 It's going to show, but it's going to show as dismissed. So it'll say, that's all it's going to show. So you don't have to put you were charged with a crime or anything, because on your applications or whatever, that's not what it is. It's only if you are convicted, and you're not if it's dismissed. It kind of sucks, because now it's on your record, and you didn't do anything wrong. Bob 5:59 Now does that record ever said like, say, bad credit or wherever you get seven years and then it kind of goes away? Or does that follow you until the grave? Kimm 6:08 It, from my understanding, it's on forever. It doesn't just fall off. I mean, I could be wrong, but that's my understanding. Bob 6:15 Okay, so don't be ignorant when it comes to the law, but be adamant. If you truly are innocent, correct? Yes. But now, is there that situation where you would take the plea? Because you're like, okay, maybe I should just take the plea and get it over with, because if I don't, they might dig into my past, or they might dig into something and find something worse. Kimm 6:37 Yes, what can happen is, if you, let's say, you're arrested for felony possession of meth, that's obviously is a big one here. And you start going, if you've got prior felonies or prior drug charges, the prosecutor has the right to supplement you, which just means they can habitualize you saying you have prior felonies. So you're this 10 year felony that you're now facing could become a 15 year. It could become a life offense. Your possible penalties that you face depend on your past. So a lot of times, you know, as the defense attorney and as the client, you have to take that into consideration when you're talking about what to do with your case. Bob 7:18 So as Ronald Reagan used to say, "Trust but verify." So if you're getting into somebody's car, if you're getting into, you know, somebody says hey, "can you take this package for me?" Trust them, but maybe double check first, just to make sure you're not hauling something you shouldn't be hauling? Kimm 7:33 It's probably a good idea, especially in our county. Bob 7:37 And if you do happen to get stopped, and if you do happen to say, "This isn't mine," but they say, "Well, you might want to get a lawyer." They can contact you for that help? Kimm 7:45 That's correct. They can call me at 517-797-6021. Bob 7:50 Or you can check out KB Law online. And then of course, you can always check in with Kimm, monthly right here on Radio Hillsdale, WCSR.